It reminds me, it seems someone should start a thread on large signal testing from a DIY perspective. I doubt most of us have a 1200W monoblock to throw at it, but almost all of us are using some kind of amp for FR testing.
I used to do it, but back then thought the juice wasn't worth the squeeze but nowadays I wouldn't mind hearing extra loud whoop whoops.
There will be 2 models of DATS LA, one contains a 1200W amp, the other a 500W(?) amp. It does all of what the V3 does, as well as measurements of large signal parameters, Bl, Kms, etc like that of a Klippel device. Bryan said he has compared to a Klippel system and they match. He called it a game changer. Said tentative pricing on the 40k is $500, and the LA is $550 for the smaller wattage unit; $1500 for the 1200W model.
Oh, and the B&C boys were tossing (literally, catchers thinking they were actually glass) around promo tumblers from Silipint with the B&C logo and subsidiaries imprinted on them, www.silipint.com, and they make silicone drinkware. Sippy cups, tumblers, glasses, water jugs, straw included drinkware, etc, in just about any color including clear. It was such a novel product I thought I should post its information here.
They just posted pictures of all the winners and the judges. Wish they would also do a group picture of everyone, but they stopped doing that a few years ago. Now they just snap one photo of each category.
Judge 1
Track1: "Nice Vocals. Good Clarity."
Track2: "Good Vocals. Flat Soundstage. No Image."
Track3: "Good Vocal. No Image."
"Would like to hear again with better positioning. Thanks,"
IMO a pretty typical description of this style of speaker. Placement always seems difficult.. probably due to directivity (I tried for a slight "extreme" toe-in for best chance). The vastly different soundstage/imaging scores are interesting. I saw Mr. Jones' head bopin, which was a good sign. Overall I'm surprised to see such high numbers.. Though, they even surprised me in that room. I wish they could sound that full in my living room! Maybe they just want some juice to party, but can't quite stretch their legs in my small space.
I think this is likely a case where the soundstage was great and the image wasn't. They give you a large wall of sound effect because of what they are. You really can't have both to a high degree anyway. If they image really well, their soundstage may feel smaller. However, there should be enough focus for spacial audio placement within the soundstage on the best designs out there.
That said, I agree with Eggman that they are impressive for the cost of admission, and don't get harsh.
I wonder what "crunchy treble" means. Maybe someone was eating one of those small bags of Doritos directly behind the judging table. I'm just kidding, but I can vaguely remember someone asking the audience to refrain from eating and/or making other crunching type noises during playback.
It is crossed somewhere in the 5-5.5k region in this case. The diaphragm has no surround (just flat polyimide), but is in a waveguide with phase plug. I have crossed it successfully down to 3k before. And my measurements show distortion is pretty good on these things.
Maybe the nature of polyimide vs other materials that sound softer. I do understand the description, And i would agree, but it is rather subtle to me. It was getting later in the day and they may have had some ear burn going on. I was surprised how loud they were playing everything and handling it the whole day.
On the soundstage/imaging variation from judge to judge, the only thing that I can think of is that maybe this particular judge was sitting in a sharp polar off-axis null, somewhere in the 3-9kHz range, which effectively placed just one of the two speakers exactly 180 degrees out of phase with the other speaker, somewhere in this 3-9kHz presense region. I had this happen with my Kowaxial speakers, where, as I recall, one judge gave me a very low score for imaging, but the other two gave me relatively high scores. When I got home, I set the speakers up and I could actually duplicate the soundstage collapse and loss of imaging when I sat roughly where that particular judge was sitting. Maybe do a polar sweep and look for any sharp dip in the presence region, at the angle that that judge was sitting. Just a thought.
@4thtry said:
On the soundstage/imaging variation from judge to judge, the only thing that I can think of is that maybe this particular judge was sitting in a sharp polar off-axis null, somewhere in the 3-9kHz range, which effectively placed just one of the two speakers exactly 180 degrees out of phase with the other speaker, somewhere in this 3-9kHz presense region. I had this happen with my Kowaxial speakers, where, as I recall, one judge gave me a very low score for imaging, but the other two gave me relatively high scores. When I got home, I set the speakers up and I could actually duplicate the soundstage collapse and loss of imaging when I sat roughly where that particular judge was sitting. Maybe do a polar sweep and look for any sharp dip in the presence region, at the angle that that judge was sitting. Just a thought.
This pretty well reflects my thoughts on it. I have considered having the judges sit front-to-back instead of side by side for this reason. This makes it harder for them to communicate to each other, but it puts them all in the "center" albeit at different distances. I wouldn't mind hearing peoples thoughts on this to be honest.
I had similar notes on my sheets regarding stage and image. Vance and Andrew gave me 9 and 10 respectively, Jerry's score was a 6.
This is definitely one area that is the hardest to setup for during these comps.
I wouldn't t stress over any of it. You make a guess as to placement and toe in and call it good. The setup and room are just the wild cards in this, and depending on the response, and dispersion of a particular speaker, it's just not possible to predict how the judges will receive it. Just smile and wave......or storm out pissed off. Lol
My comments:
The Full Waves were designed for high clarity and resolution, high efficiency ( > 100 db/watt), and minimal bass resonance. I am very pleased with their performance at the competition. I listen to them on a regular basis with a 300 milliwatt amp, mostly for classical, jazz, and acoustic chamber music.
My comments:
The B Minors were designed for light weight (10 lbs each), good clarity and resolution, and clean bass in a moderate sized box. I recently revised the crossover for increased mids and highs, and greater efficiency. I am very pleased with their performance at the competition. Their light weight makes them very useful as part of a good sounding portable music system.
Category... Judge 1/2/3
Clarity.......................9/8/9
Craftsmanship............9/4/7
Dynamic Range..........9/7/9
Originality/Design.......9/8/8
Soundstage/Imaging...9/8/8
Tonal Balance.............9/9/8
Total 147 / 18 = Overall Average of 8.17
Judge 1 comments:
(1) Bass! Good vocal. Clean and Clear.
(2) Fun sounding!
(3) Nice open sound.
Very Good!! Thanks!!
Judge 2 comments:
Excellent bass extension
Voice very nice
Best yet.
Judge 3 (Vance) comments:
Very nice bottom end.
My comments: I agree with the low craftsmanship score. I have to admit, they were somewhat "utilitarian" in appearance. Especially when you looked at them from the side or back.
Comments
From what I understand, it contains a 1200w internal amp and you control output voltage.
Like a DATS and mono test amplifier in one?
Very cool!
Any indication of MSRP?
I heard $500
I hope so too.
It reminds me, it seems someone should start a thread on large signal testing from a DIY perspective. I doubt most of us have a 1200W monoblock to throw at it, but almost all of us are using some kind of amp for FR testing.
I used to do it, but back then thought the juice wasn't worth the squeeze but nowadays I wouldn't mind hearing extra loud whoop whoops.
There will be 2 models of DATS LA, one contains a 1200W amp, the other a 500W(?) amp. It does all of what the V3 does, as well as measurements of large signal parameters, Bl, Kms, etc like that of a Klippel device. Bryan said he has compared to a Klippel system and they match. He called it a game changer. Said tentative pricing on the 40k is $500, and the LA is $550 for the smaller wattage unit; $1500 for the 1200W model.
InDIYana Event Website
Oh, and the B&C boys were tossing (literally, catchers thinking they were actually glass) around promo tumblers from Silipint with the B&C logo and subsidiaries imprinted on them, www.silipint.com, and they make silicone drinkware. Sippy cups, tumblers, glasses, water jugs, straw included drinkware, etc, in just about any color including clear. It was such a novel product I thought I should post its information here.
InDIYana Event Website
Might do large parameters and drive the speaker to higher voltages?
Yes, it very much will. I watched it in action measuring Bl.
InDIYana Event Website
They just posted pictures of all the winners and the judges. Wish they would also do a group picture of everyone, but they stopped doing that a few years ago. Now they just snap one photo of each category.
https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-design-competition
Got my score sheets. We posting em?
I will when I get mine. I'd like to see what they said...
InDIYana Event Website
Yes please
Faux Pas:
Judge 1
Track1: "Nice Vocals. Good Clarity."
Track2: "Good Vocals. Flat Soundstage. No Image."
Track3: "Good Vocal. No Image."
"Would like to hear again with better positioning. Thanks,"
Clarity - 7
Craftsmanship - 7
Dynamic range - 9
Originality/Design - 5
Soundstage/imaging - 4
Tonal balance - 7
Judge 2
"Forward Mid"
"Big Soundstage"
"Crunchy Treble"
Clarity - 8
Craftsmanship - 8
Dynamic range - 7
Originality/Design - 6
Soundstage/imaging - 10
Tonal balance - 8
Judge Vance:
"Nice application of pro sound drivers"
Clarity - 8
Craftsmanship - 9
Dynamic range - 9
Originality/Design - 7
Soundstage/imaging - 8
Tonal balance - 8
IMO a pretty typical description of this style of speaker. Placement always seems difficult.. probably due to directivity (I tried for a slight "extreme" toe-in for best chance). The vastly different soundstage/imaging scores are interesting. I saw Mr. Jones' head bopin, which was a good sign. Overall I'm surprised to see such high numbers.. Though, they even surprised me in that room. I wish they could sound that full in my living room! Maybe they just want some juice to party, but can't quite stretch their legs in my small space.
When my brother and I first heard them in Michigan last year we were impressed.
I think this is likely a case where the soundstage was great and the image wasn't. They give you a large wall of sound effect because of what they are. You really can't have both to a high degree anyway. If they image really well, their soundstage may feel smaller. However, there should be enough focus for spacial audio placement within the soundstage on the best designs out there.
That said, I agree with Eggman that they are impressive for the cost of admission, and don't get harsh.
InDIYana Event Website
I wonder what "crunchy treble" means. Maybe someone was eating one of those small bags of Doritos directly behind the judging table. I'm just kidding, but I can vaguely remember someone asking the audience to refrain from eating and/or making other crunching type noises during playback.
Crossing tweeter too low?
It is crossed somewhere in the 5-5.5k region in this case. The diaphragm has no surround (just flat polyimide), but is in a waveguide with phase plug. I have crossed it successfully down to 3k before. And my measurements show distortion is pretty good on these things.
Maybe the nature of polyimide vs other materials that sound softer. I do understand the description, And i would agree, but it is rather subtle to me. It was getting later in the day and they may have had some ear burn going on. I was surprised how loud they were playing everything and handling it the whole day.
On the soundstage/imaging variation from judge to judge, the only thing that I can think of is that maybe this particular judge was sitting in a sharp polar off-axis null, somewhere in the 3-9kHz range, which effectively placed just one of the two speakers exactly 180 degrees out of phase with the other speaker, somewhere in this 3-9kHz presense region. I had this happen with my Kowaxial speakers, where, as I recall, one judge gave me a very low score for imaging, but the other two gave me relatively high scores. When I got home, I set the speakers up and I could actually duplicate the soundstage collapse and loss of imaging when I sat roughly where that particular judge was sitting. Maybe do a polar sweep and look for any sharp dip in the presence region, at the angle that that judge was sitting. Just a thought.
This pretty well reflects my thoughts on it. I have considered having the judges sit front-to-back instead of side by side for this reason. This makes it harder for them to communicate to each other, but it puts them all in the "center" albeit at different distances. I wouldn't mind hearing peoples thoughts on this to be honest.
I had similar notes on my sheets regarding stage and image. Vance and Andrew gave me 9 and 10 respectively, Jerry's score was a 6.
This is definitely one area that is the hardest to setup for during these comps.
I wouldn't t stress over any of it. You make a guess as to placement and toe in and call it good. The setup and room are just the wild cards in this, and depending on the response, and dispersion of a particular speaker, it's just not possible to predict how the judges will receive it. Just smile and wave......or storm out pissed off. Lol
Yep. No stressin here. Just making conversation until someone else posts their numbers.
I heard someone did that one year lol
The "Full Waves"
Over 300 category
Judge #1:
Thin, but very clean and clear. Clear mids, just too thin for my tastes. Clean and clear vocal, thin.
Clarity --> 8
Craftsmanship - 7
Dynamic range - 6
Originality/Design - 7
Soundstage/imaging - 6
Tonal balance - 4
Judge #2:
Aggressive. No midbass or bass. Just very poor tonality.
Clarity - 2
Craftsmanship - 4
Dynamic range - 2
Originality/Design - 3
Soundstage/imaging - 6
Tonal balance - 1
Judge #3:
Interesting design concept.
Clarity - 5
Craftsmanship - 8
Dynamic range - 8
Originality/Design - 8
Soundstage/imaging - 8
Tonal balance - 5
My comments:
The Full Waves were designed for high clarity and resolution, high efficiency ( > 100 db/watt), and minimal bass resonance. I am very pleased with their performance at the competition. I listen to them on a regular basis with a 300 milliwatt amp, mostly for classical, jazz, and acoustic chamber music.
The "B Minors"
Under 300 category
Judge #1:
A little bright, nice image. Vocals better on this track. Bright, drop tweeter level.
Clarity - 5
Craftsmanship - 5
Dynamic range - 5
Originality/Design - 4
Soundstage/imaging - 4
Tonal balance - 4
Judge #2:
Very mid forward. Cabinet resonances. Male voice quite good.
Clarity - 7
Craftsmanship - 5
Dynamic range - 7
Originality/Design - 5
Soundstage/imaging - 8
Tonal balance - 7
Judge #3:
Interesting driver choice.
Clarity - 7
Craftsmanship - 8
Dynamic range - 7
Originality/Design - 7
Soundstage/imaging - 8
Tonal balance - 8
My comments:
The B Minors were designed for light weight (10 lbs each), good clarity and resolution, and clean bass in a moderate sized box. I recently revised the crossover for increased mids and highs, and greater efficiency. I am very pleased with their performance at the competition. Their light weight makes them very useful as part of a good sounding portable music system.
Open Unlimited Category:
"Radiusaurus" SP 20
Drivers: B&G Neo3W, Dayton ND90(4), TB1139SIF(2)
Category... Judge 1/2/3
Clarity.......................9/8/9
Craftsmanship............9/4/7
Dynamic Range..........9/7/9
Originality/Design.......9/8/8
Soundstage/Imaging...9/8/8
Tonal Balance.............9/9/8
Total 147 / 18 = Overall Average of 8.17
Judge 1 comments:
(1) Bass! Good vocal. Clean and Clear.
(2) Fun sounding!
(3) Nice open sound.
Very Good!! Thanks!!
Judge 2 comments:
Excellent bass extension
Voice very nice
Best yet.
Judge 3 (Vance) comments:
Very nice bottom end.
My comments: I agree with the low craftsmanship score. I have to admit, they were somewhat "utilitarian" in appearance. Especially when you looked at them from the side or back.
Under $300 Category:
"Plumber's Delight" SP 52
Drivers: Morel MDT-39, TEBM46C20N-4B, TB W5-2053
Category... Judge 1/2/3
Clarity.......................8/8/9
Craftsmanship............8/8/9
Dynamic Range..........6/8/8
Originality/Design.......7/9/8
Soundstage/Imaging...8/9/9
Tonal Balance.............8/8/8
Total 146 / 18 = Overall Average of 8.11
Judge 1 comments:
(1) Good vocals. OK image.
(2) Big sounding.
(3) Nice vocals. Good image.
Great job!! Thanks!!
Judge 2 comments:
Some voice modulation, but not bad.
great imaging
nice male voice tonality
good bass for size of speaker
Judge (Vance) comments:
Nice wood inlay in cabinet - clever port implementation
Got mine
Jerry
clarity 8
craftsmanship 8
dynamic range 7
originality 8
soundstage 8
tonal balance 8
1 Nice vocal, great details, open, big bass
2 Nice, oval very good
3 Nice vocal, just a touch boomy in the bass
Andrew
clarity 7
craftsmanship 8
dynamic range 6
originality 6
soundstage 8
tonal balance 7
Mid bass a little excessive, soft easy sound
Vance
clarity 9
craftsmanship 9
dynamic range 8
originality 8
soundstage 9
tonal balance 8
Nice implementation of the AMT, port diameter too small for that diameter woofer
You had a port? I thought you had passive radiators