You guys have me thinking that maybe I should just leave my handouts at home. Would anyone like to see my handout? From an on-axis perspective, they measure bright, but they sound very flat and well balanced from top to bottom (at least, to my old ears). Unlike many of my other speaker failures, that sounded bright and harsh, but measured very flat on-axis. I'm finding that acheiving a good tonal balance has more to do with tweeter/midrange directivity control throughout the xover region. This, in combination with the typical tweeter beaming above 10kHz, can produce a speaker that measures really good on-axis but sounds like crap.
I had an instance of supplying a detailed write up and using a tweeter known for it's ability to be crossed low. I received the comment from one judge that the tweeter was strained. Haha not likely. There was another time... I don't recall exactly about the bass tuning. None of those judges are attending this year.
They should be only judging based on how the speakers actually sound to them during the 3 minute demo and how they think the finish and construction looks. Everything else is just about liking or disliking certain drivers, crossover topology, etc.
@PWRRYD said:
They should be only judging based on how the speakers actually sound to them during the 3 minute demo and how they think the finish and construction looks. Everything else is just about liking or disliking certain drivers, crossover topology, etc.
Do you think anyone would even question XO points or slopes if you just made them up on the spot?
@PWRRYD said:
They should be only judging based on how the speakers actually sound to them during the 3 minute demo and how they think the finish and construction looks. Everything else is just about liking or disliking certain drivers, crossover topology, etc.
Do you think anyone would even question XO points or slopes if you just made them up on the spot?
(if the speaker is any way half decent...)
Not sure if the speaker is overall half decent. That said it's pretty obvious when a driver(s) is pushed way beyond its comfort zone distortion wise or directivity is an issue.
I found I needed to adjust voicing when moved to larger room and higher spl (louder and not just the increased distances). Had experienced too many speakers where feel constrained sounding at lower spl, like have to crank them up to shine. My ignorance would lead me to believe that related to power response considerations in the design?
For my >300 entry it's more like just trying not to f' it up, like Hippocratic oath. Have to keep self from publicly saying 'meh, i'll tear this apart for v2' - avoid those Hagrid-ism's. I was tweaking my 2way for <300 and feel it's good enough where have to quit reworking as at least got it suited for small rooms but from what I have experienced I will not be surprised if they seem too bright for the 3 min play at 80-90db, sound great at 65-70db in small room, will see - almost an experiment in itself.
@traw said:
I found I needed to adjust voicing when moved to larger room and higher spl (louder and not just the increased distances). Had experienced too many speakers where feel constrained sounding at lower spl, like have to crank them up to shine. My ignorance would lead me to believe that related to power response considerations in the design?
For my >300 entry it's more like just trying not to f' it up, like Hippocratic oath. Have to keep self from publicly saying 'meh, i'll tear this apart for v2' - avoid those Hagrid-ism's. I was tweaking my 2way for <300 and feel it's good enough where have to quit reworking as at least got it suited for small rooms but from what I have experienced I will not be surprised if they seem too bright for the 3 min play at 80-90db, sound great at 65-70db in small room, will see - almost an experiment in itself.
I agree. I will usually tweak mine in a small room. That is were all my equipment is. Pretty dead room. I will bring it out to the big room and for me, it does sound weak on the bottom end at first, but I always seem to over do the bottom in the small room. It works out nice. After listening for a while I realize the bottom is just right.
I try to rely on measurements, close mic'ed for lowend. It is hard to get a level from woofer to mid in a 3 way. 2 ways are much easier.
Forgot to add, when I voice it in the small room, I am usually at 85 db. After I think it is right I will crank it up to 95 db and see if it is still balanced.
Yeah mine have almost no baked in baffle step compensation. Was chasing sensitivity and they are only a few inches away from the wall in my livingroom anyway. I was initally a bit , but after probably several hundred hours of play the PA style woofers finally started opening up and filling in. They will still have lean midbass in the judging space, but not the absolute horror show I would have initially thought it would be.
@jhollander said:
I had an instance of supplying a detailed write up and using a tweeter known for it's ability to be crossed low. I received the comment from one judge that the tweeter was strained. Haha not likely. There was another time... I don't recall exactly about the bass tuning. None of those judges are attending this year.
There was a former judge or 2 that really did not have any business being there. I'm glad they are no longer judging.
As to the use of robust tweeters and xovering low, even then, sometimes the Fs rears its ugly head and this adds the nasal quality I strongly oppose. Not saying you would allow that, John, but others have.
It's funny to me that these compititions play speakers at 77 db or so. To me that is pretty low.
I understand that that is taken at maybe 6 feet away. Still pretty low.
Maybe I am wrong on this.
If my speakers can't break 95 dB at 9 feet and still have under 1% distortion down to maybe 50 hz, I am disappointed.
Listener fatigue happens faster at higher outputs. Critical listening causes fatigue too. To avoid damage, less than 85dB should be enforced. This is why 80 to 85dB is normal at events, unless briefly dynamic testing performance.
My entries are 100% my way this year, with zero attempts at tailoring the sound to what I perceive others might like. I think they will actually do better this way. If not, at least I like them...
I've never focused on changing the sound from my room to a large venue. If voiced the way I like them at home, they should sound that way at an event. I never tweak tweeter level for another room, but I know others have. My main concern is the speaker surviving the required output levels in a larger room vs my living room.
My speakers seemed to love that room. From where I was standing that was the best I've heard em yet. Wasnt enough to place though. Was a big category with stiff competition.
Congrats to those who placed, including Clay (heck yeah man!)
@jhollander said:
My room sucks so it's hard to know if something is off. It seems only after Fort Wayne do I figure it out.
That is good to know because I thought your stuff sounded great.
My speaker sounded the same to me, except the rising peak at 60 hz that didn't show up until day two and continued to rise when I got it home. Guess it wasn't the room for me.
BTW, I have reworked the crossover for it and it is much better. I might have screwed up the crossover somehow. Still don't know how. I ran DATS and it was much different from what I originally had. 60 hz peak is gone and the impedance is back where it should have been.
1st place: Brian Z "Firecrackers" speakers
2nd place: Bill S. "Radiusaurus" speakers (B&G Neo3W, Dayton ND90(4), TB W6-1139SIF(2))
3rd place: Norman C. "Singulier" speakers
Comments
Exactly, do I really want to let them know before hand just how bad the frequency response is?
You don't have to supply the component values on the schematic like Troles does with his online schematics, right?
You guys have me thinking that maybe I should just leave my handouts at home. Would anyone like to see my handout? From an on-axis perspective, they measure bright, but they sound very flat and well balanced from top to bottom (at least, to my old ears). Unlike many of my other speaker failures, that sounded bright and harsh, but measured very flat on-axis. I'm finding that acheiving a good tonal balance has more to do with tweeter/midrange directivity control throughout the xover region. This, in combination with the typical tweeter beaming above 10kHz, can produce a speaker that measures really good on-axis but sounds like crap.
I agree. Many things must be considered. On axis amplitude is only one.
It is primary. but......
I had an instance of supplying a detailed write up and using a tweeter known for it's ability to be crossed low. I received the comment from one judge that the tweeter was strained. Haha not likely. There was another time... I don't recall exactly about the bass tuning. None of those judges are attending this year.
Exactly, confirmation bias.
Just look and listen please! And even looks can be deceiving...
They should be only judging based on how the speakers actually sound to them during the 3 minute demo and how they think the finish and construction looks. Everything else is just about liking or disliking certain drivers, crossover topology, etc.
Do you think anyone would even question XO points or slopes if you just made them up on the spot?
(if the speaker is any way half decent...)
I have seen some crazy stuff sound really good and really well accepted stuff sound really bad. I say, " If it sounds good, it is good."
Not sure if the speaker is overall half decent. That said it's pretty obvious when a driver(s) is pushed way beyond its comfort zone distortion wise or directivity is an issue.
Xo points and slopes?... I've thought about going full spinorama on the judges and tell them my Listening Window and In-Room Response targets.
I found I needed to adjust voicing when moved to larger room and higher spl (louder and not just the increased distances). Had experienced too many speakers where feel constrained sounding at lower spl, like have to crank them up to shine. My ignorance would lead me to believe that related to power response considerations in the design?
For my >300 entry it's more like just trying not to f' it up, like Hippocratic oath. Have to keep self from publicly saying 'meh, i'll tear this apart for v2' - avoid those Hagrid-ism's. I was tweaking my 2way for <300 and feel it's good enough where have to quit reworking as at least got it suited for small rooms but from what I have experienced I will not be surprised if they seem too bright for the 3 min play at 80-90db, sound great at 65-70db in small room, will see - almost an experiment in itself.
I agree. I will usually tweak mine in a small room. That is were all my equipment is. Pretty dead room. I will bring it out to the big room and for me, it does sound weak on the bottom end at first, but I always seem to over do the bottom in the small room. It works out nice. After listening for a while I realize the bottom is just right.
I try to rely on measurements, close mic'ed for lowend. It is hard to get a level from woofer to mid in a 3 way. 2 ways are much easier.
Forgot to add, when I voice it in the small room, I am usually at 85 db. After I think it is right I will crank it up to 95 db and see if it is still balanced.
Yeah mine have almost no baked in baffle step compensation. Was chasing sensitivity and they are only a few inches away from the wall in my livingroom anyway. I was initally a bit
, but after probably several hundred hours of play the PA style woofers finally started opening up and filling in. They will still have lean midbass in the judging space, but not the absolute horror show I would have initially thought it would be.
There was a former judge or 2 that really did not have any business being there. I'm glad they are no longer judging.
As to the use of robust tweeters and xovering low, even then, sometimes the Fs rears its ugly head and this adds the nasal quality I strongly oppose. Not saying you would allow that, John, but others have.
InDIYana Event Website
It's funny to me that these compititions play speakers at 77 db or so. To me that is pretty low.
I understand that that is taken at maybe 6 feet away. Still pretty low.
Maybe I am wrong on this.
If my speakers can't break 95 dB at 9 feet and still have under 1% distortion down to maybe 50 hz, I am disappointed.
Listener fatigue happens faster at higher outputs. Critical listening causes fatigue too. To avoid damage, less than 85dB should be enforced. This is why 80 to 85dB is normal at events, unless briefly dynamic testing performance.
InDIYana Event Website
Ive always made my speakers sound good in my room. All these gatherings are for fun. If my junk sounds good elsewhere, cool.
I'm with Eric.
My entries are 100% my way this year, with zero attempts at tailoring the sound to what I perceive others might like. I think they will actually do better this way. If not, at least I like them...
I've never focused on changing the sound from my room to a large venue. If voiced the way I like them at home, they should sound that way at an event. I never tweak tweeter level for another room, but I know others have. My main concern is the speaker surviving the required output levels in a larger room vs my living room.
InDIYana Event Website
My room sucks so it's hard to know if something is off. It seems only after Fort Wayne do I figure it out.
Anyone taking pictures?
My speakers seemed to love that room. From where I was standing that was the best I've heard em yet. Wasnt enough to place though. Was a big category with stiff competition.
Congrats to those who placed, including Clay (heck yeah man!)
Who won?
That is good to know because I thought your stuff sounded great.
My speaker sounded the same to me, except the rising peak at 60 hz that didn't show up until day two and continued to rise when I got it home. Guess it wasn't the room for me.
BTW, I have reworked the crossover for it and it is much better. I might have screwed up the crossover somehow. Still don't know how. I ran DATS and it was much different from what I originally had. 60 hz peak is gone and the impedance is back where it should have been.
Open Unlimited Category:
1st place: Brian Z "Firecrackers" speakers
2nd place: Bill S. "Radiusaurus" speakers (B&G Neo3W, Dayton ND90(4), TB W6-1139SIF(2))
3rd place: Norman C. "Singulier" speakers