I've not had caps deviate like that in terms of value after use in a xover, Nick.
More or less, I'm going for best sound IMO. I want the best balanced/least bright/dull, more spacious, and good detail resolution with an overall smoothness that nothing sounds out of place.
It seems the good AMT style drivers to me are capable of this high resolution, massive space and Soundstage, and yet still can deliver a delicacy when required, along with high output potential. BUT- they are picky boogers to get it just right.
When I built the Nephila, it happened purely by accident that I achieved this state. I had a lot of input to the design obviously, but the last 10% was purely by chance that I used the right parts to get there.
I guess I'm trying to catch lightning in a bottle- twice, and feel I'm very close.
Well crap- I prefer the CMR in the highpass over the SoniCaps. What i heard was akin more to a cup muted trumpet tone difference, when it should have been less so. I think I can make them fit. I'll show more later...
So, I swapped the 4.7 SoniCap in downstream in the notch for the previous Cebo, and that is even improved now.
I ended up liking the Russian polystyrene K71-4 most in that spot. I ended up choosing the largest caps for their value that I have on hand. The CMR are just shy of $50 each from PCX in Canada, and the SoniCaps are just as costly. The K71 sell for less than $20 usually if you can find them, and ship from over there. I essentially added $100/cab in xover additional cost to get where the drivers wanted me to go.
I also ended up changing the front resistor back to a 4.7 ohm because the caps are lower DCR. That value was tough too because it was the difference between 4.5 and 4.7 ohms trumpet from Doc Severinsen sounded good on both with the lesser bringing him a touch more in front where trumpets should be. However, then harsher lesser recordings get fatiguing. I went for the better over all than just my trumpet playing past preference.
AND- my wife actually sat and helped me reign them in this morning, making track requests. The resistor change for her was the most dramatic, followed by when I stuck in the Russians.
The layers, space, and the detail these are now capable of are really impressing me.
Just as an anecdote, I priced the Nephila drivers, and came to 311 bucks. Back then in 2015, they were $228.
The Dayton drivers in the Hancocks run about $304. Even more inexpensive than the previous.
I am redoing some things, as well as replacing the input strip. I am putting the old coils back in as I don't need the multitaps. I will move the tweeter coil all the way to the left in the same orientation. Then, I can place a 3" x 6" vertical daughter board along the middle to support the caps with central axes vertically positioned.
At least that is the plan....
Edit: Original input strip was retained. Daughter board became 2 boards.
Pictures will be uploaded when finished.
One all done! I used the WAGO connectors because the polystyrene film melts at a lower temp and I didn't want to harm them making the connection. A little glue for staying power and done.
(Ken just told me hemostats make good soldering heatsinks, so I'll get a pair to have around.)
Likely the CMR 400V 6.8uF would not overhang the board at all, but the 630V were 2 dollars cheaper.
Appreciate it, Ben. I always admire the ingenuity in your projects. In your opinion, how do these drivers rank against other similar setups you've created (non-dome tweeters and roughly 6" woofers)?
@MartyH said:
Sixteen pieces on a 2-way? Atta' boy, Junior!
C4 is optional, but it helps the weakness of the Polystyrene- its top end. I felt it sounded better with it attached, so I left it there. Being post-war manufacture NOS parts, they could very well be a little inductive.
@rstillin said:
Appreciate it, Ben. I always admire the ingenuity in your projects. In your opinion, how do these drivers rank against other similar setups you've created (non-dome tweeters and roughly 6" woofers)?
Honestly, I feel I like the SIG better than the RS180. I would put these pretty high up, especially for the cost. The tweeter resolves a lot of detail when caps don't impart their own signature. It's also pretty sensitive for a 7" 2way. I need to measure to verify, but my gut says 88dB.
I think I've only done 1 other 7"/ribbon 2way, the Nephila. These compare quite well.
Edit:
I've done several 5" 2ways with non-domes, but that is because they can play higher to reach them more easily.
In fact, I think the SIG150 would have been an easier blend here. I got all the top-end I could from the SIG180.
Comments
I've not had caps deviate like that in terms of value after use in a xover, Nick.
More or less, I'm going for best sound IMO. I want the best balanced/least bright/dull, more spacious, and good detail resolution with an overall smoothness that nothing sounds out of place.
It seems the good AMT style drivers to me are capable of this high resolution, massive space and Soundstage, and yet still can deliver a delicacy when required, along with high output potential. BUT- they are picky boogers to get it just right.
When I built the Nephila, it happened purely by accident that I achieved this state. I had a lot of input to the design obviously, but the last 10% was purely by chance that I used the right parts to get there.
I guess I'm trying to catch lightning in a bottle- twice, and feel I'm very close.
InDIYana Event Website
I'm using the Nephila's as references to voice new speaker builds. Look forward to see if you can do that again!
Why are we weird people? Guess we are all in good company I suppose. Just searching for that perfect thing I guess.
Maybe not weird but, yeah need to get to that 9th degree
Well crap- I prefer the CMR in the highpass over the SoniCaps. What i heard was akin more to a cup muted trumpet tone difference, when it should have been less so. I think I can make them fit. I'll show more later...
So, I swapped the 4.7 SoniCap in downstream in the notch for the previous Cebo, and that is even improved now.
I'll swap more on this cap and see what I think.
InDIYana Event Website
I ended up liking the Russian polystyrene K71-4 most in that spot. I ended up choosing the largest caps for their value that I have on hand. The CMR are just shy of $50 each from PCX in Canada, and the SoniCaps are just as costly. The K71 sell for less than $20 usually if you can find them, and ship from over there. I essentially added $100/cab in xover additional cost to get where the drivers wanted me to go.
I also ended up changing the front resistor back to a 4.7 ohm because the caps are lower DCR. That value was tough too because it was the difference between 4.5 and 4.7 ohms trumpet from Doc Severinsen sounded good on both with the lesser bringing him a touch more in front where trumpets should be. However, then harsher lesser recordings get fatiguing. I went for the better over all than just my trumpet playing past preference.
AND- my wife actually sat and helped me reign them in this morning, making track requests. The resistor change for her was the most dramatic, followed by when I stuck in the Russians.
The layers, space, and the detail these are now capable of are really impressing me.
Now to finish the proper network assembly....
InDIYana Event Website
Just as an anecdote, I priced the Nephila drivers, and came to 311 bucks. Back then in 2015, they were $228.
The Dayton drivers in the Hancocks run about $304. Even more inexpensive than the previous.
InDIYana Event Website
Okay- prior reassembly....
I am redoing some things, as well as replacing the input strip. I am putting the old coils back in as I don't need the multitaps. I will move the tweeter coil all the way to the left in the same orientation. Then, I can place a 3" x 6" vertical daughter board along the middle to support the caps with central axes vertically positioned.
At least that is the plan....
Edit: Original input strip was retained. Daughter board became 2 boards.
Pictures will be uploaded when finished.
InDIYana Event Website
One all done! I used the WAGO connectors because the polystyrene film melts at a lower temp and I didn't want to harm them making the connection. A little glue for staying power and done.
(Ken just told me hemostats make good soldering heatsinks, so I'll get a pair to have around.)
Likely the CMR 400V 6.8uF would not overhang the board at all, but the 630V were 2 dollars cheaper.
InDIYana Event Website
Hemostats - oh, is that what they are good for - and I just used to think it kept my fingers from getting burnt 😆 back in the day
InDIYana Event Website
Aren't you missing a ground/negative connection at S1, Ben or is this a series/parallel XO?
(I got lost trying to follow it).
It's a parallel xover, ground at L2.
InDIYana Event Website
Ah-ha!
Thanks . . .
Appreciate it, Ben. I always admire the ingenuity in your projects. In your opinion, how do these drivers rank against other similar setups you've created (non-dome tweeters and roughly 6" woofers)?
Sixteen pieces on a 2-way? Atta' boy, Junior!
C4 is optional, but it helps the weakness of the Polystyrene- its top end. I felt it sounded better with it attached, so I left it there. Being post-war manufacture NOS parts, they could very well be a little inductive.
InDIYana Event Website
Honestly, I feel I like the SIG better than the RS180. I would put these pretty high up, especially for the cost. The tweeter resolves a lot of detail when caps don't impart their own signature. It's also pretty sensitive for a 7" 2way. I need to measure to verify, but my gut says 88dB.
I think I've only done 1 other 7"/ribbon 2way, the Nephila. These compare quite well.
Edit:
I've done several 5" 2ways with non-domes, but that is because they can play higher to reach them more easily.
In fact, I think the SIG150 would have been an easier blend here. I got all the top-end I could from the SIG180.
InDIYana Event Website