There’s nothing wrong with cork, or rubber, or synthetic types of each. I’d prefer they call it what is is rather than give a fancy name and/or trademark.
The problem with us humans is that we get bored and want “new and improved”
So the marketers have to come up with new things;
But these old things have been around and used for a long time-
Paper (cellulose) fibers- since 1920’s
Plastics (Eg. bextrene, expanded polystyrene, polypropylene, CURV) 1960s
Woven aramids- Fibreglass, Kevlar, carbon fibres since 1960s
Metals Eg. Aluminium, Magnesium, Beryllium- since 1974
600-6k and 3k+ for ranges are what I would wager...
Edit: those HD plots are misleading, as the 1% does not line up with -40dB as it should. So the questions are, are they supposed to be lined up, and if so, which is accurate.
That's why I thought they were for the Epique line. Matching pairs, carbon fiber domes, etc.
Yes, I feel the matching service is a bit costly as well. I do bet they are using the new DATS-LA and Omnimic 40k for the job.
HD is obviously normalized, similar to what ARTA does when you set it to display distortion in percent. Use left y-axis scale for the fundamental, use left y-axis scale for harmonics.
But...what distance/level does Dayton test distortion at? Not listed in the readme file. These plots are useless information without the measurement conditions.
@dcibel said:
HD is obviously normalized, similar to what ARTA does when you set it to display distortion in percent. Use left y-axis scale for the fundamental, use leftright y-axis scale for harmonics.
But...what distance/level does Dayton test distortion at? Not listed in the readme file. These plots are useless information without the measurement conditions.
Yeah, I had originally typed that they don't spec the level or distance. I checked the readme as well as the general Dayton Audio site (not the PE site) and didn't find anything. With the fundamental it looks like they do at least spec the level (around 100dB) but what distance? I assume NOT 1 meter.
@tktran said:
There’s nothing wrong with cork, or rubber, or synthetic types of each. I’d prefer they call it what is is rather than give a fancy name and/or trademark.
But these old things have been around and used for a long time-
Yes agreed, many are more ‘marketing’ than advancements.
@dcibel said:
HD is obviously normalized, similar to what ARTA does when you set it to display distortion in percent. Use left y-axis scale for the fundamental, use leftright y-axis scale for harmonics.
But...what distance/level does Dayton test distortion at? Not listed in the readme file. These plots are useless information without the measurement conditions.
Yeah, I had originally typed that they don't spec the level or distance. I checked the readme as well as the general Dayton Audio site (not the PE site) and didn't find anything. With the fundamental it looks like they do at least spec the level (around 100dB) but what distance? I assume NOT 1 meter.
Using reasonable logic, we can assume 2.8V at 315mm, but you know what happens when you assume. Dayton should specify conditions, very silly not to do so.
..and yes, right axis, thanks for correcting my typo.
The RS52 has been shown to have QC issues more recently, and has a dip-peak in the center of its bandwidth. It did not have this initially, but has since the switch of build houses. For that matter, most liked how it measured before, but not everyone liked how it sounded. To quote our passed friend LouC, "I'm a member of the RS52 ain't shit club." I never liked it much either, and Lou and I discussed it on more than one occasion. The textile version to me sounded better, but apparently measured worse.
The older Dynaudio, Vifa, HiVi, ATC, and others like the Usher and TB just sounded better to me.
I like dome mids over cones in the right circumstances, and variety yields more options.
The only similarity is the diameter of the dome. The height of the dome and its profile is different.
In addition, the use of different materials affects the stiffness and this effects the response. In addition, woven materials like carbon fibre exhibit an anisotropic response. The shape of the faceplate near the dome affects the horn loading behaviour at the low end, and the larger the size of the faceplate restricts the off axis frequency response at the high end.
All of this affects the on AND off axis frequency responses, so they wouldn’t sound the same, even if you could equalise a particular angle Eg. On-axis to be completely the same within +/- 0.1dB.
these are all the factors that makes a difference, and hence I believe why one particular 2” dome (or 5.25“ mid-woofer) will never sound like another 2” dome (or 5.25” mid-woofer)…
The fun will never end for DIY tomfoolery or audiophools…
I haven’t tried Ultimax II, but in the latest January 2025 Voice Coil test bench, despite a good showing on the Klippel BL(x), Kms(x) and Le(x) flatness and symmetry, dialling in at 16.3mm x-max, the woofer exhibits a LARGE rise in distortion at the impedance blip/FR dip around 350Hz.
IMHO it makes a great subwoofer <100Hz if you need the displacement, but if need it to pull double duty as a woofer up past 500Hz to 1KHz, the RSS is still better
Frequency responses and impedance sweeps are still important
@tktran said:
The only similarity is the diameter of the dome. The height of the dome and its profile is different.
In addition, the use of different materials affects the stiffness and this effects the response. In addition, woven materials like carbon fibre exhibit an anisotropic response. The shape of the faceplate near the dome affects the horn loading behaviour at the low end, and the larger the size of the faceplate restricts the off axis frequency response at the high end.
All of this affects the on AND off axis frequency responses, so they wouldn’t sound the same, even if you could equalise a particular angle Eg. On-axis to be completely the same within +/- 0.1dB.
these are all the factors that makes a difference, and hence I believe why one particular 2” dome (or 5.25“ mid-woofer) will never sound like another 2” dome (or 5.25” mid-woofer)…
The fun will never end for DIY tomfoolery or audiophools…
I haven’t tried Ultimax II, but in the latest January 2025 Voice Coil test bench, despite a good showing on the Klippel BL(x), Kms(x) and Le(x) flatness and symmetry, dialling in at 16.3mm x-max, the woofer exhibits a LARGE rise in distortion at the impedance blip/FR dip around 350Hz.
IMHO it makes a great subwoofer <100Hz if you need the displacement, but if need it to pull double duty as a woofer up past 500Hz to 1KHz, the RSS is still better
Frequency responses and impedance sweeps are still important
Thanks Than!
Good call.
Always great posts by you.
But Chahly - Stahkist don't want speakers that look good, Stahkist wants speakers that sound good!
In response to Drew's Tymphany query, it appears that some of the drivers are coming back. There is a thread at HTguide that talks about it a little, but I haven't seen it anywhere else.
Quoting tktran....
"A little birdie told me that some Peerless drivers will be available to buy soon or early next year from SoundImports.eu and hopefully PE.
Some oldies but goodies, including the OT19NC, DA25TX and DA32TX, SLS 5” and 6” 830945 and 830946, 830845 12” XXLS 8 ohm fibre cone for sealed boxes, and 12” alu cone XXLS 4 ohm 835017,
Well the 835017 lives on as the Danish made ScanSpeak Discovery 12” subwoofer, but the rest? well once they are out they will be hard to ever get again."
^^^This was in the Christmas Sales thread of "DIY Mission Possible" section.
Apparently, Jon Marsh, technodanvan and some others have orders placed, but some may not be in stock until May at Sound Imports.
Digikey has the big STW350 in stock in case anyone wants one of those.
If the physical mic is high quality and low distortion then this is priced like a bare Earthworks mic but includes all of the user friendly OmniMic software features. Of course, I won't be dropping $500 to test it.
@Wolf said:
In response to Drew's Tymphany query, it appears that some of the drivers are coming back. There is a thread at HTguide that talks about it a little, but I haven't seen it anywhere else.
Quoting tktran....
"A little birdie told me that some Peerless drivers will be available to buy soon or early next year from SoundImports.eu and hopefully PE.
Some oldies but goodies, including the OT19NC, DA25TX and DA32TX, SLS 5” and 6” 830945 and 830946, 830845 12” XXLS 8 ohm fibre cone for sealed boxes, and 12” alu cone XXLS 4 ohm 835017,
That is awesome news! I may have to pick up a couple of the 835017. That's a nice driver. Glad it is being re-manufactured.
@a4eaudio said:
If the physical mic is high quality and low distortion then this is priced like a bare Earthworks mic but includes all of the user friendly OmniMic software features. Of course, I won't be dropping $500 to test it.
I'd be interested as to whether or not the "PhotoLink" device can be placed off to the side, by the amplifier, during the measurement process. In the picture, they show the "PhotoLink" device placed on the top of the speaker cabinet, directly above the tweeter. But can it be placed somewhere else in the room and still work?
Comments
There’s nothing wrong with cork, or rubber, or synthetic types of each. I’d prefer they call it what is is rather than give a fancy name and/or trademark.
The problem with us humans is that we get bored and want “new and improved”
So the marketers have to come up with new things;
Eg. Focal W- fibreglass sandwich proprietary
B&W Continuum -fibreglass coated proprietary
Oxeon/Composite Sound TeXtreme- carbon fibre proprietary
But these old things have been around and used for a long time-
Paper (cellulose) fibers- since 1920’s
Plastics (Eg. bextrene, expanded polystyrene, polypropylene, CURV) 1960s
Woven aramids- Fibreglass, Kevlar, carbon fibres since 1960s
Metals Eg. Aluminium, Magnesium, Beryllium- since 1974
Very glad Madisound picked them up. Just a little better than the Dayton planars
and is high value compared to the SB beryllium tweeters.
Entire RAAL lineup is available to buy nowadays
The new carbon fiber dome midranges are up at PE.
Distortion files are from the Data zip files.
Dome Midrange:
Tweeter:
600-6k and 3k+ for ranges are what I would wager...
Edit: those HD plots are misleading, as the 1% does not line up with -40dB as it should. So the questions are, are they supposed to be lined up, and if so, which is accurate.
InDIYana Event Website
The matching service on these is pricey. Why should they need that? Seems odd to offer a matching service on mid tier products.
That's why I thought they were for the Epique line. Matching pairs, carbon fiber domes, etc.
Yes, I feel the matching service is a bit costly as well. I do bet they are using the new DATS-LA and Omnimic 40k for the job.
InDIYana Event Website
HD is obviously normalized, similar to what ARTA does when you set it to display distortion in percent. Use left y-axis scale for the fundamental, use left y-axis scale for harmonics.
But...what distance/level does Dayton test distortion at? Not listed in the readme file. These plots are useless information without the measurement conditions.
Yeah, I had originally typed that they don't spec the level or distance. I checked the readme as well as the general Dayton Audio site (not the PE site) and didn't find anything. With the fundamental it looks like they do at least spec the level (around 100dB) but what distance? I assume NOT 1 meter.
Yes agreed, many are more ‘marketing’ than advancements.
Using reasonable logic, we can assume 2.8V at 315mm, but you know what happens when you assume. Dayton should specify conditions, very silly not to do so.
..and yes, right axis, thanks for correcting my typo.
Healthy skepticism
Other than a small faceplate, what is to recommend these over the RS52?
The RS52 has been shown to have QC issues more recently, and has a dip-peak in the center of its bandwidth. It did not have this initially, but has since the switch of build houses. For that matter, most liked how it measured before, but not everyone liked how it sounded. To quote our passed friend LouC, "I'm a member of the RS52 ain't shit club." I never liked it much either, and Lou and I discussed it on more than one occasion. The textile version to me sounded better, but apparently measured worse.
The older Dynaudio, Vifa, HiVi, ATC, and others like the Usher and TB just sounded better to me.
I like dome mids over cones in the right circumstances, and variety yields more options.
InDIYana Event Website
Ultimax II - anybody try one yet?
The only similarity is the diameter of the dome. The height of the dome and its profile is different.
In addition, the use of different materials affects the stiffness and this effects the response. In addition, woven materials like carbon fibre exhibit an anisotropic response. The shape of the faceplate near the dome affects the horn loading behaviour at the low end, and the larger the size of the faceplate restricts the off axis frequency response at the high end.
All of this affects the on AND off axis frequency responses, so they wouldn’t sound the same, even if you could equalise a particular angle Eg. On-axis to be completely the same within +/- 0.1dB.
regardless of distortion or SPL capability, in my study of directivity:
https://www.htguide.com/forum/forum/primetime-a-v/mission-possible-diy/driver-testing-discussion/950681-a-study-on-directivity-ribbons-domes-wg-horns-baffled-or-naked
these are all the factors that makes a difference, and hence I believe why one particular 2” dome (or 5.25“ mid-woofer) will never sound like another 2” dome (or 5.25” mid-woofer)…
The fun will never end for DIY tomfoolery or audiophools…
I haven’t tried Ultimax II, but in the latest January 2025 Voice Coil test bench, despite a good showing on the Klippel BL(x), Kms(x) and Le(x) flatness and symmetry, dialling in at 16.3mm x-max, the woofer exhibits a LARGE rise in distortion at the impedance blip/FR dip around 350Hz.
IMHO it makes a great subwoofer <100Hz if you need the displacement, but if need it to pull double duty as a woofer up past 500Hz to 1KHz, the RSS is still better
Frequency responses and impedance sweeps are still important
Might be a fluke but.. Many peerless drivers on PE now show taged "NEW" but out of stock. Some even have a quantity discount list assigned as well.
https://parts-express.com/speaker-components/hi-fi-woofers-subwoofers-midranges-tweeters/midrange-midbass-drivers-full-range-speakers/brand/Peerless%20by%20Tymphany?order=base_price:asc
Just an example above. I see the same for woofers like HDS 830883 and tweeters like the corundum domes.
Thanks Than!
Good call.
Always great posts by you.
In response to Drew's Tymphany query, it appears that some of the drivers are coming back. There is a thread at HTguide that talks about it a little, but I haven't seen it anywhere else.
Quoting tktran....
"A little birdie told me that some Peerless drivers will be available to buy soon or early next year from SoundImports.eu and hopefully PE.
Some oldies but goodies, including the OT19NC, DA25TX and DA32TX, SLS 5” and 6” 830945 and 830946, 830845 12” XXLS 8 ohm fibre cone for sealed boxes, and 12” alu cone XXLS 4 ohm 835017,
Well the 835017 lives on as the Danish made ScanSpeak Discovery 12” subwoofer, but the rest? well once they are out they will be hard to ever get again."
^^^This was in the Christmas Sales thread of "DIY Mission Possible" section.
Apparently, Jon Marsh, technodanvan and some others have orders placed, but some may not be in stock until May at Sound Imports.
Digikey has the big STW350 in stock in case anyone wants one of those.
InDIYana Event Website
OmniMic 40K
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-OmniMic-40k-Precision-Measurement-System-to-40k-Hz-390-794?
$500!!!
That's what the new DATS is projected to cost as well.
If the physical mic is high quality and low distortion then this is priced like a bare Earthworks mic but includes all of the user friendly OmniMic software features. Of course, I won't be dropping $500 to test it.
That is awesome news! I may have to pick up a couple of the 835017. That's a nice driver. Glad it is being re-manufactured.
Still cheaper than Earthworks M30, way cheaper than the M50.
I saw Dave mention that the NE123 for the Statements II will be back in stock at PE.
And yes- they said the 40k would be $500, and the DATS-LA might be more, depending....
InDIYana Event Website
FFS!
$500!
Anybody see Bubble Boy? Hah...
InDIYana Event Website
Fast Fourier S___?
I'd be interested as to whether or not the "PhotoLink" device can be placed off to the side, by the amplifier, during the measurement process. In the picture, they show the "PhotoLink" device placed on the top of the speaker cabinet, directly above the tweeter. But can it be placed somewhere else in the room and still work?