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New Econowave
I have been thinking about an econowave style build. I few times a year I wish I had a PA speaker available and i have not spent much time with efficient speakers for home listening so this should fill 2 buckets. They will eventually become shop speakers.
Its been years since the original econowave thread and variants. So I'm curious what would you build (diy audio bench racing)? What drivers do you have personal experiance with that you would recomend?
My goals are pretty loose at the moment 10-12 inch woofer horn/compression driver in less than 3cf.
Thanks
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No budget specified, so I'll assume lower price higher value. Since that's kinda my jam.
I've used the D220ti, but it has doubled in price since I got it. Probably not the value it once was. The D202ti uses the same diaphragm and just a little less sensitivity (nowhere close enough to matter).
But the SB Bianco 44CD-PK is looking nice IMO. Less $ than the D202ti even. They measured it with the H250 horn so I'd say pair it with that. 10" horn so maybe 10" woofer to go with it.
The GRS 10PT-8 factory response graph looks pretty much identical (sans smoothing) to the Dayton PA255-8. And, per factory specs, if you give it 2 cubes it'll give a 40hz f3. And do it pretty safely past 100watts cranking 112db+.
I have the drivers to build a higher end version. I bought a pair of Eminence Delta Pro 12A woofers from Jeff Bagby more than 10 years ago. I also bought a pair of the Peerless/Tymphany compression drivers when they first came out and a pair of Seos 12" horns. Maybe someday I'll build some.
Is buying all the parts for an Econowave the same as building a pair?
On the shelf I have a pair of Celestion CDX1-1746 Screw-On Horn HF Compression Drivers and Dayton Audio H6512 6.5in (6-1/2in) x 12in Waveguide 1.375in (1-3/8in) - 18 TPI horns along with a pair of Visaton W300 12" woofers.
Someday these are/were also to be garage speakers..
Looking at the GRS drivers the 10 vs 12 the 10 does look really attractive. The 12 does have a much higher power rating but probably not needed. The GRS drivers model more like home audio woofers than PA but that is just hoffman being a jerk again.
Agreed that the Bianco PK looks to be a winner, it is nice that both SB and GRS are pretty reliable on their published specs. When posting this yesterday the GRS12 and the Bianco were sitting in my carts.
The Faux Pas are definetly inspiring that even cheap PA driver can sound great.
What denotes an "Econowave" speaker?
@ Ken
The PA310 has a much flatter break-up mode and the Fs will drop to 35 Hz after some judicious exercise in my experience - just thought I would pass it along . . .
If I were building another econowave style speaker today, I know I'd stay far away from D220ti, it's pretty bad. There's a lot of low cost from compression drivers available today, so you don't have to limit yourself to the D220ti that Zilch popularized.
I've used B&C DE250 in a SEOS12, it's not very "Econo" but it is quite decent. There's a lot of cheap clones of it out there, even Dayton has a one.
A large 2-way using budget PA components, a compression driver in a large waveguide horn, and woofer of your choosing.
I have an econowave design ready to build SEOS, B&C DE250, GRS12. I like the idea of using the bigger Dayton Celestion horns with side mounted midranges for a MEH. I have those Peerless CDs also.
My synopsis: At the core it revolved around taking the design concepts circulating in the DIY community at the time (such as directivity, directivity matching), and applying it to lower cost PA style drivers that had alot of potential. I think the project leaned toward a HT focus for a compact enclosure since bass extension wasn't a concern (because sub/s). But, likely do to the flat response goal, most folks thought they sounded good for music too. So, many were made as towers to fill the bottom end better.
I believe the "econowave" term was the name of the JBL horn/waveguide they started out using? It maintained alot of use through the evolution of the collective project. Dayton cloned it as the H6512**. 12" woofers mated up well to it's directivity. So the original econowave concept was that horn with a 12" woofer (insert your flavor CD and woofer). The CD was usually a 1.75" dia vc so it could handle the low XO (often below 2khz). They later moved on to the big QSC waveguide (and a similar buyout waveguide) until that became NLA to home gamers. There was a ton of talk about other horns/waveguides, but actual implementation of those seemed more fringe.
D220ti/D202ti seemed rather polarizing to people. Some hate it, some like it. I didn't think it was harsh, but very direct and revealing (maybe to a fault, to some folks). One of those things that realy hits the spot when that is what you want, but probably too much to handle all evening.
I still have a pair of the buyout waveguides that were very similar to the QSC.. waiting for the right project. The speaker in my profile pic was a PA310 with D220ti on H812 horn. I called them the "Tatankas". But I never brought it to the gatherings because I re-measured them after changing amps.. and something is not right. Think it needs a crossover redo. By that point I might completely redo it with the B52 horns and different CDs. So it's been backburnered. I now see less point having a near 2cf "bookshelf". Might as well make it a tower with less depth. Still end up with more interior volume for lower extension.
**Seems all Dayton's clone horns have too large throat diameter and puts a dent in the top octave.
https://mtg-designs.com/tips-tricks-tests/waveguide-shootout/1in-thread-horns/dayton-h6512
Yeah, you get nice bass extension but give up highest sensitivity. Put 2x 10PT for 2.5way in 3cf and still have 45hz f3. Would probably end up mid 90s db/2.83v while keeping the bass that you wouldn't get from a higher sensitivity midbass.
On their way
3CF Gets an f3 of 36hz and take 150watts 115db all day without complaining. I promise I don't plan on listening at 115db...all day.
In the PA world that woofer would likely be high passed around 80hz to hand off to a bass bin. Wonder how loud she would play in that scenario.
I don't think it would be xmax limited. Probably start suffering from power compression before it could go much louder?
Depending on how well the vc is cooled, probably.
Looking at a pic of the ass end of the driver, it has a vented back plate, plus peripheral cooling around the vc. It can probably handle some juice.
That entire line is a very good value.
One of the things that lead me to the 12 was the 3in voice coil over the 2 in voice coil in the 10.
That should be a rockin speaker🤘🏼
12db difference between the woofer and CD without any baffle step. Never had to deal with that before, might get interesting.
I resorted to an L-pad pot. Because small Ω changes would make quite the db difference. Made it much more straight forward to match L/R.
You'll definitely need that 12dB (18dB) of headroom to tame the compression driver.
InDIYana Event Website
Here is an old thread on PE,
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/34467-flex-your-pcd-mettle?postcount=1#post1617195
Ben, you might be right but Im hoping that it remains smooth. I'm hoping that it easy to work with, the graph looks promising.
Woofers shipped today should be here by Wednesday. I assume the horn and CD will be the same.
I wonder if that dip in the response and the spike in the impedance around 2k is a resonance of the the back cover. It looks like the same plastic cover you see on alot of CDs. Maybe try silicone on a heavy washer as a mass damper?
That took me down a rabbit hole...
The Rosso vs the Bianco, the Rosso is clearly better but this isnt an all out build.
It seems the exit angle and the cast back are the 2 mechanical differences. The replacement elements are a different part number as well but couldn't find why they were different.
The back chamber is probably where the most improvement could be made. Since the anomaly is in the impedence plot it makes me think I could isolate it with some trial and error and testing with DATS.
Stirring up my interest again.. I found these:
https://ebay.com/itm/285618780438
https://ebay.com/itm/286228098342
Looks like an early Denovo clone of the B&C Polyimide CD. Waveguide appears to be an EV clone with a more universal bolt-on CD mounting plate than the original.
That seller is Matt Grant, he is pretty active over on diyaudio. Dont know that I jave ever met him but seems to be pretty nice from what I have heard from others.
Where is the speaker from your user ID?
LOL! I forgot that I built enclosures for my econwaves years ago. They were hiding behind my M/T slicks with several things stored on top of them. I might put them together and take some raw measurements. My original plan was to go active with a miniDSP to correct the Z offset. Not sure what to do with them now. The cheap miniDSP's I have now might be a bit too noisy for such sensitive drivers. And I'm not at the point where I want to shell out the coin for a miniDSP HD unit.