I did have my wife connect both to a speaker switch, wired to the same speakers, and hid the connections. When I get time I will do some listening. For the first round I will choose a or b, and if I’m wrong then I know I’m crazy and no reason to go to double blind. If I identify which is which I’ll see if I can get her to run the controls for a real test.
As for wires, not my thing. The best system I’ve ever heard has over 400’ of SnapAV basic in wall 14/4 (7.1.4 with 3 subs, electronics in the basement).
@tommytunes50 said:
Many many moons ago there was a long thread on Audio Asylum about generic 14/3 extension cord from Home Depot as speaker cable. Folks were convinced that it out performed many mega buck esoteric cables. But it had to be the orange jacket with the black stripe. The “Halloween” cable. And it was directional. The text on the jacket had to read towards the speaker. Or the amp, I don’t remember. 🙄
I still have a "Halloween" cable. It sends power to my soldering workbench. My crossovers need all the help they can get.
Keep an open mind, but don't let your brain fall out.
Thanks! I have tried a few others against it including a decent Rotel and it was no comparison. The JBL was clearly better.
That said, I might have a line on an amp I’ve been after for a while, so this one may be available soon. Let me know (any of you on here) if interested!
I listened to them blindly tonight. Short story is I was able to confidently say which was which. It was less clear which was which and took closer listening. I’m certain a big part was not seeing them, and also they shared the negative at the switch and the speakers, so regardless of which was chosen the negative was also used on the other wire, so that possibly contributed.
The defining factors that decided it for me this time around was edgier highs, lack of solid deep bass, lower image height, and less coherence in the presentation on the fancy wires. Again, this was way more subtle than the sighted test with isolated negative leads, but apparent enough to give me confidence in my decision.
So for whatever it’s worth, I learned I prefer cheap old standard wire (parallel, bare copper) to the fancy heavy one (tinned copper, twisted). YMMV.
@jr@mac said:
So Ive been running the same 10/2 Knukonceptz cable for a few years now, completely blinged up. About 3m long, terminated with spades on both ends.
This thread has me curious so I whipped up a set of 2m 10awg zippy cord this morning (thanks insomnia), terminated one end with nanners and the other with spades (dreadnaught does not accept nanners).
I'll give it a listen tonight. I think my lcr meter is sensitive enough to measure cable reactance. Be interesting to see any differences between the two cables.
Just curious if you came up with any objective or subjective outcomes JR?
@jr@mac said:
So Ive been running the same 10/2 Knukonceptz cable for a few years now, completely blinged up. About 3m long, terminated with spades on both ends.
This thread has me curious so I whipped up a set of 2m 10awg zippy cord this morning (thanks insomnia), terminated one end with nanners and the other with spades (dreadnaught does not accept nanners).
I'll give it a listen tonight. I think my lcr meter is sensitive enough to measure cable reactance. Be interesting to see any differences between the two cables.
@jr@mac said:
So Ive been running the same 10/2 Knukonceptz cable for a few years now, completely blinged up. About 3m long, terminated with spades on both ends.
This thread has me curious so I whipped up a set of 2m 10awg zippy cord this morning (thanks insomnia), terminated one end with nanners and the other with spades (dreadnaught does not accept nanners).
I'll give it a listen tonight. I think my lcr meter is sensitive enough to measure cable reactance. Be interesting to see any differences between the two cables.
Just curious if you came up with any objective or subjective outcomes JR?
I noticed a subtle difference in the bass, and am working on the theory that 10' of twisted pair simply has more of an effect on system bass tuning than 6' of zippy cord. It is likely the lower series resistance of the 6' coupled with the capacitance introduced in the twisted pair is what effected the tuning.
I am going to keep the zippy cord - it blends better into the background.
Otherwise, there were no eye-opening differences, or at least none the wife and I could discern. I trust her ears implicitly. She is a critical part of my design chain.
Or I may be falling victim to confirmation bias. Guess what I am trying to say is given how little difference I heard, it could still be all in my head.
That all being said, I am willing to sell my blinged out pair of speaker cables.
@6thplanet said:
...with sweet dreams of bitter IPA's
No super bitter IPAs - hoppy for the sake of being hoppy is the same trap wing aficionados fall into: hot for the sake of being hot. As in unnecessarily burning the tongue and rest of digestive chain.
Happily, the hyper-hoppy movement has started falling in favor of more complex flavors. I think it will also happen to the wing world, if the massive list of different flavors offered at B-dubs is any indication. Of course, the fringe will always exist but for now I am just happy to have more options.
There are two sides to hops in a basic sense. Early addition into the boil contributes to bitterness, but late addition (just before halting the boil) adds to the floral hops flavors and aromas. The veriety of hops used in either addition will impart it's own twist to the flavors.
IMO most comercial bottled IPAs are pretty one-note. On tap they realy open up. But I'd say that about most ales anyway.
There are some IPAs I will seek out. Notably Dogfishhead's "minute" IPAs. That mystery hop-X is realy something. A nice citrus note to break up the typical monotony.
I was realy into bold flavor beers 15-20yr ago. But after my personal brewing experience.. If I want to know a microbrewer's chops I order their light beer. No bold flavors to cover up off flavors due to not having total control of their process.
If anyone ever has the chance to check em out. "Grainworks" down around West Chester/Mason Ohio has absolutely knocked my socks off! They have by far the cleanest tasting beers I've tried of any microbrew. (the food is meh, go down the street to Warped Wing for that)
Drew makes good beer. I have only had one of his beers. It was a wild hop beer, not sure what style it was, pale ale maybe. I drank it all. I plan to drink more of Drew's brews.
I like what this thread has morphed into something better like a beer thread, so I hope to not derail it. Just thought I’d throw this out there. My computer is toast so can’t run limp or dats, but did a quick measure with my lcr dmm (which I have found to be wildly inaccurate at times..).
Capacitance is very close between the two cables, with the zippy being lower despite being 2-3x in length. No measurable inductance and no measured difference in dcr.
Probably the least hoppy ipa I have had. Rated only 16 ibu. Very good, be a great beer as a gateway drug to IPAs lol.. Dangerous though as it is very crushable yet 6.5%
@jr@mac said:
I noticed a subtle difference in the bass, and am working on the theory that 10' of twisted pair simply has more of an effect on system bass tuning than 6' of zippy cord. It is likely the lower series resistance of the 6' coupled with the capacitance introduced in the twisted pair is what effected the tuning.
I am going to keep the zippy cord - it blends better into the background.
Otherwise, there were no eye-opening differences, or at least none the wife and I could discern. I trust her ears implicitly. She is a critical part of my design chain.
Or I may be falling victim to confirmation bias. Guess what I am trying to say is given how little difference I heard, it could still be all in my head.
That all being said, I am willing to sell my blinged out pair of speaker cables.
Here is a story that relates to this. I am friends with the owner of Linkwitz Audio, Frank Brenner. He sells complete systems of amps+speakers, and CABLES. So he has talked to a bunch of providers of cables (speaker and line level) when sourcing these components. He told me that one company claimed their interconnects would sound "fuller" and more impressive using his cables. It turns out that the cable actually DID have richer bass and tone, but this was only because the design intentionally had elevated inductance that rolled off the highs and tiling the entire frequency response down by about 1-2dB over the audio band. It was a sort of snake oil cable. It was NOT selected!
What you want is a neutral cable. Same for amplifers. Make your speakers as neutral as possible as well. Otherwise you will have tens of variables that will impact the sound and tonal balance in your system and you will be forever switching out components and cables in an effort to find that "magic" sound. This just tends to empty your wallet more than bring you better quality audio!
@dynamo said:
Capacitance is very close between the two cables, with the zippy being lower despite being 2-3x in length. No measurable inductance and no measured difference in dcr.
If you know the loudspeaker's impedance response and the LCR values of the length of speaker cable you are using you can calculate its effect in series with the loudspeaker, and then you will know what amount of frequency response change the cable will create WRT a cable with R=0, L=0, and C=0.
This would be useful because it will tell you whether some amount of LCR actually changes anything about the speaker's frequency response, or not. It will depend on the impedance of the speaker and where the peaks and valleys in the impedance response are located.
Well I still wanted bling bling cables, so I employed the trusty lamp cord dressed up in split loom covered with sexy flexy, cable pants, and some heat shrink. Now my cheap wires look as good as they sound lol..
Also made up a new digital coax out of some copper rg6 with some nice clearanced radio shack compression rca coax connectors I’ve had forever as well as some iec power cables with 12ga shielded soow.
Comments
I did have my wife connect both to a speaker switch, wired to the same speakers, and hid the connections. When I get time I will do some listening. For the first round I will choose a or b, and if I’m wrong then I know I’m crazy and no reason to go to double blind. If I identify which is which I’ll see if I can get her to run the controls for a real test.
Nice amp!
As for wires, not my thing. The best system I’ve ever heard has over 400’ of SnapAV basic in wall 14/4 (7.1.4 with 3 subs, electronics in the basement).
I still have a "Halloween" cable. It sends power to my soldering workbench. My crossovers need all the help they can get.
Sehlin Sound Solutions
Thanks! I have tried a few others against it including a decent Rotel and it was no comparison. The JBL was clearly better.
That said, I might have a line on an amp I’ve been after for a while, so this one may be available soon. Let me know (any of you on here) if interested!
I listened to them blindly tonight. Short story is I was able to confidently say which was which. It was less clear which was which and took closer listening. I’m certain a big part was not seeing them, and also they shared the negative at the switch and the speakers, so regardless of which was chosen the negative was also used on the other wire, so that possibly contributed.
The defining factors that decided it for me this time around was edgier highs, lack of solid deep bass, lower image height, and less coherence in the presentation on the fancy wires. Again, this was way more subtle than the sighted test with isolated negative leads, but apparent enough to give me confidence in my decision.
So for whatever it’s worth, I learned I prefer cheap old standard wire (parallel, bare copper) to the fancy heavy one (tinned copper, twisted). YMMV.
Just curious if you came up with any objective or subjective outcomes JR?
He's still asleep
...with sweet dreams of bitter IPA's
I noticed a subtle difference in the bass, and am working on the theory that 10' of twisted pair simply has more of an effect on system bass tuning than 6' of zippy cord. It is likely the lower series resistance of the 6' coupled with the capacitance introduced in the twisted pair is what effected the tuning.
I am going to keep the zippy cord - it blends better into the background.
Otherwise, there were no eye-opening differences, or at least none the wife and I could discern. I trust her ears implicitly. She is a critical part of my design chain.
Or I may be falling victim to confirmation bias. Guess what I am trying to say is given how little difference I heard, it could still be all in my head.
That all being said, I am willing to sell my blinged out pair of speaker cables.
No super bitter IPAs - hoppy for the sake of being hoppy is the same trap wing aficionados fall into: hot for the sake of being hot. As in unnecessarily burning the tongue and rest of digestive chain.
Happily, the hyper-hoppy movement has started falling in favor of more complex flavors. I think it will also happen to the wing world, if the massive list of different flavors offered at B-dubs is any indication. Of course, the fringe will always exist but for now I am just happy to have more options.
There are two sides to hops in a basic sense. Early addition into the boil contributes to bitterness, but late addition (just before halting the boil) adds to the floral hops flavors and aromas. The veriety of hops used in either addition will impart it's own twist to the flavors.
IMO most comercial bottled IPAs are pretty one-note. On tap they realy open up. But I'd say that about most ales anyway.
There are some IPAs I will seek out. Notably Dogfishhead's "minute" IPAs. That mystery hop-X is realy something. A nice citrus note to break up the typical monotony.
I was realy into bold flavor beers 15-20yr ago. But after my personal brewing experience.. If I want to know a microbrewer's chops I order their light beer. No bold flavors to cover up off flavors due to not having total control of their process.
If anyone ever has the chance to check em out. "Grainworks" down around West Chester/Mason Ohio has absolutely knocked my socks off! They have by far the cleanest tasting beers I've tried of any microbrew. (the food is meh, go down the street to Warped Wing for that)
Ugh...beer people. 😛
Drew makes good beer. I have only had one of his beers. It was a wild hop beer, not sure what style it was, pale ale maybe. I drank it all. I plan to drink more of Drew's brews.
Time for my mostly useless fact of the day.
I'd choose cannabis over hops any day.
My old tummy agrees, now . . .
Why not both?
If it helps, I also like whisky and whiskey.
I like what this thread has morphed into something better like a beer thread, so I hope to not derail it. Just thought I’d throw this out there. My computer is toast so can’t run limp or dats, but did a quick measure with my lcr dmm (which I have found to be wildly inaccurate at times..).
Capacitance is very close between the two cables, with the zippy being lower despite being 2-3x in length. No measurable inductance and no measured difference in dcr.
Now back to beer!
$3 a foot - not bad for 11ga. OFC copper and looks like fancy Kimber that cost $30 a foot. https://www.parts-express.com/Audtek-8TC-1-1-ft.-Multi-Conductor-Twist-16-Core-OFC-Speaker-Cable-Hi-Fi-Audio-File-Wire-100-951?quantity=1
@petechman -I bet Audio File is meant to be Audiophile??
I never understood the whole woven multi-strand insulated wire thing. It always seemed like a bad idea because of capacitance.
Yeah, and it doesn't sound as open and clear because of it. It's subtle for sure, but that is what I heard.
InDIYana Event Website
From Audio magazine's annual equipment guide in Oct 1978. FWIW, Monster Cable was founded in 1979.
Hazy ipa and fuzzy silkie.
Probably the least hoppy ipa I have had. Rated only 16 ibu. Very good, be a great beer as a gateway drug to IPAs lol.. Dangerous though as it is very crushable yet 6.5%
Here is a story that relates to this. I am friends with the owner of Linkwitz Audio, Frank Brenner. He sells complete systems of amps+speakers, and CABLES. So he has talked to a bunch of providers of cables (speaker and line level) when sourcing these components. He told me that one company claimed their interconnects would sound "fuller" and more impressive using his cables. It turns out that the cable actually DID have richer bass and tone, but this was only because the design intentionally had elevated inductance that rolled off the highs and tiling the entire frequency response down by about 1-2dB over the audio band. It was a sort of snake oil cable. It was NOT selected!
What you want is a neutral cable. Same for amplifers. Make your speakers as neutral as possible as well. Otherwise you will have tens of variables that will impact the sound and tonal balance in your system and you will be forever switching out components and cables in an effort to find that "magic" sound. This just tends to empty your wallet more than bring you better quality audio!
If you know the loudspeaker's impedance response and the LCR values of the length of speaker cable you are using you can calculate its effect in series with the loudspeaker, and then you will know what amount of frequency response change the cable will create WRT a cable with R=0, L=0, and C=0.
This would be useful because it will tell you whether some amount of LCR actually changes anything about the speaker's frequency response, or not. It will depend on the impedance of the speaker and where the peaks and valleys in the impedance response are located.
Well I still wanted bling bling cables, so I employed the trusty lamp cord dressed up in split loom covered with sexy flexy, cable pants, and some heat shrink. Now my cheap wires look as good as they sound lol..
Also made up a new digital coax out of some copper rg6 with some nice clearanced radio shack compression rca coax connectors I’ve had forever as well as some iec power cables with 12ga shielded soow.
Can you buy that loom/jacket in snake-skin patterns like a diamond-back or coral?
That would make them sound even more killer . . .