Honest question (long)

Mzisserson

Hey peeps....

I look through the projecr gallery at TechTalk, and even threads like Hong's monkey coffin and reading the comments there is always this stink of "Thats good, but..."

Why? I, for one, regardless of what I may have done different, love this execution and see no real "flaw" in it. It is a stellar example of DIY at its finest. It measures great and sounds good to Hong. it has even inspired me to make a decision on my next design team project I have been teetering with because franky, I did not want to put in the effort it is going to take. 


But the buts. But this, and that, and a tone that is could have been done "better". No way, Jose. Maybe different, but not better. 

Hong aside, if someone then posts sometning that does not fit a pre-defined mold  of measurement or execution.... fahgeddaboutit' raked over the coals. 

Makes me think of the LS3/5...or the Yamaha NS10.....Or ProAc 1sc....Or Spica TC50 (Everyone needs to hear these if they have not). None perfect, ALL legendary. Spendor S7 too...

Most of what we execute is so damn good across the board. Yet there is so much doubting and downing it becomes uninspiring, at least to me. 

My Tori-Pop build thread got derailed because of the PVC mid cabinet and ALLLLL of the issues it would cause. specially because I did not put a "good enough" relief behind the midrange. The attached pic is the distortion profile of $260 in mid range and tweeter vs. the $11 FRS5X as measured in tori pop same level, same distance, on axis. Which is which(scale is shifted 10dB on one, but the dB/division isnthe same)? I won't tell. I would post a waterfall too, but there is nothing except the 16K breakup and some -35dB noise here and there. 

So really, why is it a constant battle of "better" and "buts", when in the scope of any give build most designers do a damn fine job? 

It is not constructive criticisum because most times, it is not even asked why something was done to understand. 

I wonder why this has become the stance? Sure, its easy enough to hide behind the veil of science and always question and on and on. However there is a big difference between questioning for the sake of learning, and questioning-then-answering that question with statenets like...."I though because..", and "why did you do this? because X states or I found..." And putting the OP on trial having to cite several sources or they simply suck. 

Its a community, and no one is going to die over speakers. Why not celebrate what good IS being done and learn from different applications of the science and form? I do not feel the need to explain my designs or ideas anymore but I wonder if anyone feels they want to share, or discuss, and end up deciding othewise because they do not want to be on trial or be made to feel an idea is bad if it doesnt fit a mold. 

This comes at the time when I am finishing the crossover design of my first Design Team build and find it interesting that I am not thinking in terms of what I would like to do, rather what will make the crowds happy. For shits and giggles Incame up with three DIFFERENT crossovers that yield a flat reaponse and from what I can see all else being equal, I am not sure they would be worse or better, simply different. Yet posting any one would draw areas that can be attacked. 

I just find it all very interesting and wonder what the thoughts are on such things.

TL;DR - Why is the natural reaction of all too many in this hobby to tear down others designs no matter how good rather than celebrate them?

JasonP

Mzisserson said:

...
TL;DR - Why is the natural reaction of all too many in this hobby to tear down others designs no matter how good rather than celebrate them?

I think this is a great post, and piercing observation, and I am going to highlight just the end here because it simplifies matters most to me. I feel there is a huge ego driven vibe in speaker design and that designers mistakenly feel that celebrating another's design diminishes their own. That is a flat mistake and it hurts the community as a whole, and that is my stance.

In summary, people attack other's designs because they are not their designs and therefore lesser by that condition alone.

I wish this was not true, but I feel strongly it is.

PWRRYD

Cases of small pee pee syndrome?

Turn2

Nice post Mike. Lots of factors at play, certainly. Some of it is the new professional sport of online trolling. It's hard to share a beer on the internets.

jr@mac

Complicated question - and having received more than a few "hakumya" questions over the years, I even named a design after the phenomenon. 

There was recently a thread over at PETT where someone asked the question (paraphrasing) "given all the time and effort and cost into building a cabinet - why use anything but the most expensive drivers?"

Well... if you have to ask, you truly do not understand. There are a lot of people who want the experience of building a pair of speakers and then move on. I think there are many people in this hobby who forget that the kind of person who is obsessed with the pursuit of perfection are exceedingly rare. Many, many, many people build a pair of speakers, throw them in the living room and move on with their lives. They may queue up Pandora while they build a model airplane or carve knife handles or knit or cook or silkscreen t-shirts. They are in it for the experience, man. Nothing more, nothing less. To question their choices - much less outright call their efforts a waste of time (and lets face it - a lot of those "yeah, but..." or "hakumya..." or "When I used driver x..." is nothing more than a thinly disguised accusation of someone having wasted their time) is ridiculous, and is one of the behaviors we do not condone here. 

So, there is definitely a wide streak of "stop wasting your time with budget builds" threading through the hobby along with an undeniable sense of superiority and a serious misunderstanding of what drives a lot of casual builds. 

As to the more prolific designers, I believe the commentary along those lines to be even more ridiculous. 

I received several comments in the past over my decision to use a Dayton RS28 with a pair of MCM woofers in an MTM - some of them rather disparaging. I used to give a fuck, but now - I'll use a goddam RAAL with a Goldwood if I want to - and I use the ignore function on forums to filter out the inevitable developmentally disabled commentary. To date, I have pressed "ignore" on two people. Two. I can live with my decision to use the MCM 55-2669 paired with the RS28 - and anyone who heard the design will attest to that pairing. 

On another occasion, someone zombied a thread I had done on a pure simulation and a well established designer made a comment about a little wrinkle at 1K, very condescending remark in point of fact. At that time, I had already done quite a few designs etc - so for this person to not be aware of who I am was really the point in time where I decided I had to stop trying to make a name for myself through simply designing.   

Sadly, going public with a design also means you are subject to critics - and like it or not, our community is fragmented along geographical, budgetary, and conceptual lines. East coast designers sometimes do things differently than West coast and mid-westerners and vice-versa and so and so forth There are a few from each region who seem compelled to offer persistent negative commentaries. I do believe much of it is rooted in good intentions, but a lot of it just comes across as total asshole behavior. I have written many times on the futility of vague criticism. Saying things like "seems to be somewhat off in the crossover region" is absolutely meaningless without also identifying what aspect of the performance made you think that. Was it a certain passage in a song? Did the pink noise not anchor right during level setting? What? What was it? What did those superlative golden ears reveal? If you are good enough to hear something being "off" in the crossover region, you should damn well be able to pinpoint what it was, if not offer an actual fix. 

Thankfully, those types of reviews have become few and far between. 

However, just because we are multiple tribes does not mean we do not share a common language and a common cultural core and, as such, mutual respect for each other in our various endeavors is essential to keep the hobby alive. I have decided to make it a point in the last few years to try and refrain from offering unsolicited negative feedback of a design, and when solicited will not do so in public. I think it important to keep those conversations private - and in person. It is easy to be the asshole online, harder perhaps when sharing a beer with a guy who has maybe two designs of his own under his belt. 

TL;DR - don't sweat what a couple assholes say. Most of them will not act like that in real life, and those that do run the risk of being stooge-slapped. 

isaeagle4031

My first few posted designs i got raked over the coals by a few "well meaning" designers because i couldnt answer their questions as to why i made this or that decision. It really took the wind out of my sails for awhile to the point i refused to share anything, offer assistance, or enter a contest. 

I later realized that those i considered my friends, those i choose to be close to on the forums, were the ones that truly appreciated my own learning curve and helped me rather than tear me down. 

Now if someone does not like what i post or questions me, i can answer to the best of my ability without the fear or care of negative opinions. In the grand scheme, they really dont matter. The ones that do, i treasure to give me honest critique and even if we dont agree, we are still friends. 

The other place is full of keyboard warriors with nothing better to do because most cant design for or build for themselves anyway. 

Mzisserson

"Its hard to share a beer on the internets".

 I will re-use if you don't mind. Funny how one little casual statement can actually be damn profound. 

Good stuff guys and thanks. It seems to make sense, its too bad, but it makes sense. 

I am no beneovlant angel and have fallen into the trap multiple times. It took some real rude awakenings to see. The Irony being once the ego was checked at the door, the slap stung pretty bad at what I was missing and how much more growing can be done. Despite the struggles, I am glad for it and lucky for this community, and my non-audio circle, too. 

Huh, just realized is almost Thanksgiving....Cool, good timing! 

hongrn

The more I build and the more I post, the thicker my skin becomes. I used to get rattled big time and feel insecure about the hobby, but no longer. If I make a mistake or post the wrong answer, so be it. Call me out on it. Do I give a fuck? Heck no. As everyone knows, I had zero electronics background. Getting to this point has been hard, and getting criticized in a harsh way at times was even harder. One thing I noticed though, the loudest critics are often the ones who haven't done shit over the years.

squamishdroc

Great posts guys!

What did our parents tell us - if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say it.Constructive criticism is great, "hey that part there there will cause problems here". But criticising because someone's way of doing something isn't the way you might do it - LAME! I got into this hobby because I like building things and seeing/hearing the results of my labor. I have had some great help along the way and all that really matters to me is that at the end of the day we can just sit down on the couch, close our eyes, and enjoy the music regardless of that wrinkle at 1k.

greywarden

I remember the very first time I posted something on PETT it was a simple design with two fullrange drivers and someone quoted me and basically ripped me a new asshole over comb filtering, I don't remember who it was, I don't really care at this point, but I basically left the forum alone for a while after that. When I started making posts about the Deadhorse, people were generally helpful, I eventually took the easy way out with MiniDSP, then built the fully active Leviathans, and finally came around with the passively-crossed Harbingers that I really, really enjoyed. I've never really posted pics of them except on social media and never really intend to elsewhere since the woofers are NLA now, but everyone that listens to them, really likes them, so that always puts a smile on my face. In my opinion, that's what DIY is all about, having fun, experimenting, learning, building something you're proud about.

ScottS

This is a really good thread - Thanks Mike.  

I think a lot of us have our moments when we get a little saltier or take things more seriously than we should.  When I started out, I needed a little encouragement and support.  For a while after that, constructive criticism was important to expand the bag of tricks and learn what to focus on.  Now, I really just need to remember to have fun.  As I reflect back, the projects I have enjoyed the most had a certain theme or motivation that originated in something that really captured my imagination rather than simply "these seem like good drivers that should work well together".

Dave Ellis, who was my neighbor growing up and helped introduce me to the DIY community said on his Ellis Audio website something along the lines of designing a speaker based on his own pursuit of sound and sharing with others in case they liked them.  This drives a couple of key points for me.

1.  If I am not excited about my project, why should anyone else be?
2.  If someone else is not excited about my project, that is okay - I built them for me.
3.  If someone has a legitimate idea on how to improve my project, I might try it out to see if I like it better that way.  I have nothing to lose in that pursuit as the ultimate goal is to have something I can afford, fits where it needs to fit, and that I enjoy listening to.  

duanebro

Love this post. I don't have the designs under my belt that most of you have. But I still try to help brand new people trying to get into the hobby. I worry that I may scare them away. Not trying to be mean, but I think I come off that way sometimes. (Off topic - just in general. I think I would like to teach others some day. But I don't want to be "that" teache. The one that makes you dread class.)

Mzisserson

duanebro said:

Love this post. I don't have the designs under my belt that most of you have. But I still try to help brand new people trying to get into the hobby. I worry that I may scare them away. Not trying to be mean, but I think I come off that way sometimes. (Off topic - just in general. I think I would like to teach others some day. But I don't want to be "that" teache. The one that makes you dread class.)

Empathy and encouragement go a long way. One thing I find works is let them reach out. If you see sonething wrong, like a blip at 1k , be humble about it, or PM if it seems like a gross oversight that way you are not turning the dogs loose. Sometimes noobs, and olds alike can simply miss things. We ALL are human. No matter how rational and smart we think we are. I get it, we are all smart fellas, grown men, and don't feel we need "daps" it to feel good. Most don't...Thats called maturity, like it or not, our brain still gives us a shot of dopamine when we are told: Nice work, good job, cool, or even see an emoji thimbs up. A good example is this thread: I am glad we all get to disuss this and it made people happy. So for me, as long as the design isn't a total train wreck, and the designer likes it....Man, thats good stuff. 

 Knowing the trolls are there, it is far more productive for all to appriciate where the gold is in any given design, not point out where it isn't. The more I sit back and observe, the more I see when people really want help or analysis, they will ask. 

Another un-asked for $0.02 on the interwebs lol.

R-Carpenter

I generally care less and less what other people think of a build. The build or A build has an objective. Either I am trying to show a thought and fabrication process to the newer members or I am free floating with the idea. Someone wants to criticize it. oh well. Nobody prevents you to tell them to shove it up theirs.
Personally, I'd like to see more adventurous builds like arrays, dipoles, various kinds of hybrids with horn loading and not just tweeter horn loading, omnies.

kennyk

R-Carpenter said:

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Personally, I'd like to see more adventurous builds like arrays, dipoles, various kinds of hybrids with horn loading and not just tweeter horn loading, omnies.

Just picked up some(more) PTmini tweeters to change over a line array I presented at DIY-NY. I also plan a woofer array to supplement them.