Site Links
Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Categories
In this Discussion
Please review the site Rules, Terms of Service, and Privacy Policy at your convenience. Rules, TOS, Privacy
Get familiar with the reaction system: Introducing the Reaction System
War of the 10" MONSTER SQ bass drivers!
Okay, okay, a bit misleading since I haven't done the actual "showdown", but here is what I have planned:
Requisites:
Candidates thus far:
If anyone else has suggestions for a good candidate, please let me know. I only need extension down to 38-40Hz, so I prefer the Fs to not be too low, around 30Hz, ± a few Hz, but I do need LOUD bass since I don't listen to mickey-mouse vocalist/single-instrument solo recordings. The vast majority of the time, it's death metal that needs to drop-kick you in the chest when the double-bass drum blast-beats rip into a song, hence high power handling and a healty Xmax. I'm heavily leaning towards the four Ultimax's or Reference HO's due to the fact that I will have massive combined piston area equivalent to an ~18" cone.
Requisites:
- 10" nominal size bass drivers aimed at Sound Quality.
- dual 2Ω or single 4Ω
- VC Diameter ≥ 2.5"
- RMS power ≥ 500W
- Vas ≤ 1.2ish ft³
- Qts ≤ 0.5ish
- X-max ≥ 12mm
- low-distortion motors
- "clean" FR out to ~500Hz (will likely H.P. somewhere in the 100Hz-200Hz range)
- < $300 each driver
Candidates thus far:
- Dayton Ultimax UM10-22 (already have)
- Dayton Reference 10" HO SVC-4 (should be here next week)
- CSS SDX10 (should be here next week)
- Adire Audio Brahma D2 (should be here next week)
- F3 in the 38-40 Hz range
- Sensitivity will be low given a woofer's traditional Fs and my requisite low Vas, but they will be implemented in multiples, as such:
- Ultimax UM10-22's would be four drivers to a box
- Reference 10 HO will be four drivers to a box
- CSS SDX would be 2 drivers to a box (Vas is a bit larger than I'd like)
- Adire Audio Brahma 10D2 would be 2 drivers to a box (too monstrous to mount more than 2, lol)
- Maximum enclosure volume = 1.5-1.6ish ft³
- They will be independently powered (separetely) from the midbass-midrange-treble via multi-kW amplifier(s), so BSC can be built into the design via more power input compared to the other drivers.
- Tuning will be via four Earthquake PR's (two on each side of the enclosure, roughly mid-30's Hz)
If anyone else has suggestions for a good candidate, please let me know. I only need extension down to 38-40Hz, so I prefer the Fs to not be too low, around 30Hz, ± a few Hz, but I do need LOUD bass since I don't listen to mickey-mouse vocalist/single-instrument solo recordings. The vast majority of the time, it's death metal that needs to drop-kick you in the chest when the double-bass drum blast-beats rip into a song, hence high power handling and a healty Xmax. I'm heavily leaning towards the four Ultimax's or Reference HO's due to the fact that I will have massive combined piston area equivalent to an ~18" cone.
Comments
Also, see this thread I made on HTGUIDE, there's discussion of similar drivers for a somewhat differnt application, but some of the links and dicussion may be helpful.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?44396-Help-choosing-a-woofer-to-anchor-my-3-way-floorstander
Personally, I would be skeptical about using the ultimax to 400hz in an 'SQ' type application, and note that SB has a few 10-12" drivers that would be suitable IMO.
I don't plan to use the woofer up to 400Hz. As I mentioned it will be HPF'd somewhere between 100Hz-200Hz. I'm hoping for a nice output just slightly above that to prevent having to "fix" things after the fact. I have very specific design constraints that cannot use 12" driver's due to my required enclosure size. Thanks for that link, but my design is not a floor-stand'er. Our design criteria is simply quite different. While I don't need much deep bass extension, pro-audio drivers in the 10" size will not provide the punch I am looking for, and are therefore not suitable.
Look at the Vas of that Seas woofer. It won't make the cut for my design criteria (meaning my enclosure requirements, as a single 10" simply won't cut it). I need a lot of output in a small space, hence my need for multiples. I think a lot of time people really under-estimate how much raw bass output my music really needs to sound visceral, "like you're there", meaning at a death metal concert. It's not rap music obviously, as I don't need to cause seismic events, but the raw output that I'm looking for will not be satisfied by anything less than two 10" LOUD woofers.
Thanks for the suggestions, but I have done the majority of my homework already. Just hoping I blatantly over-looked a great driver that meets my pre-determined criteria somehow.
I agree with your prediction, but the Ultimax would work in quadruples-per-box, which is a plus in and of itself for Sd. Distortion would also be reduced via less excursion for a given cone excursion. Choices, choices....
I'm surprised to hear pro audio drivers aren't going to give enough punch, which is for me counter-intuitive given that they are what I think would normally be used and suggested for extreme SPL music reproduction. Then again I am the first to admit I don't listen at near concert level SPLs, so I should leave the recommendations to others here who may have more experience with that design goal. I do think as the others said you have several great contenders on your list, I'd be surprised if the Adire and CSS won't win the day. I'll be watching what you choose with interest!
The problem with pro audio driver's in the 10"-size not giving punch is that most are simply midbasses/midranges with useable Xmax in the 2-6mm range (realistically). Their Fs is very high, cones are thin, surrounds have limited travel, and the Qts is so low due to very strong motors that it shifts the EBP/midband/passband way too high. The few pro-audio 10's that are designated as true woofers have pretty large Vas which renders them useless for my enclosure size constraints. Now pro-audio dual-15's and dual-18's in multiples, well that's a whole 'nother ballgame in a different zip code.
Don't forget that I will be factoring in the fact that I will use multiples, but it won't be equally across the board. In effect the comparison will be:
four Ultimax 10s vs four Reference HO's vs two CSS SDX10's vs two Adire Brahma 10's
the speakers will be tested individually, but the results must be skewed to account for the difference in the number of drivers that would/could be implemented. Tricky, indeed! The advantage of the Ultimax and Reference drivers is that for the same SPL, in those multiples specified, they will only have to move half as much as the SDX's/Brahma's (for a given SPL), and this test will definitely be running a lot of power (via a Peavey IPR2 7500)
Depending on the final winner, I will likely use a Lab-Gruppen Clone (XBS DS20Q or FP22000Q) on a heavy duty 240V circuit that I'm planning to run anyways.
Believe it or not, I actually have a lot of faith in the Ultimax 10's. There is one high-end speaker manufacturer that uses some Ultimax's in one of their (multi-thousand dollar) speakers, and the head-honcho there does not skimp on high-quality, truly low-distortion speakers in general. So I'm expecting them to perform very well in the 10" size.
As far as I know, it takes about 115-120 to give a good "whack you in the chest" drum track.
I'm always impressed with your scientific tests and subjective ratings.
The UMs do have the Xmax, question is overall SQ. I've always heard praise for the CSS woofers.
The tower of power. Right now I'm running a bunch of extension cords from different outlets that are on different breakers, since I have a few things to tidy up on my 240V/120V extension box that will eventually power up everything on a dedicated 100A breaker/2awg wire. My extension box will have 12 individual outlets each on it's own 20A breaker. (Not that I will have 12 units drawing that much power, that's just the set-up configuration). There will also be two 240V/50A outlets for future Lab-Gruppen clone amps.
InDIYana Event Website
I'll allow it because it has 750W RMS power handling (and because I already bought one for the showdown).
The one speaker I wish was a contender is my JBL W10GTi. I only have one pair, and they were discontinued already. If I can only find another pair. I have one in a ported box I used to use in my car, but have since relegated it to outdoor use. Probably the nicest 10" bass driver I have ever heard, due to it's DDD motor topology. Actually it's the best sounding bass driver I have ever heard, regardless of size. Curious as to how it measures up.
I've seen your Overdrive sub, and I did find it very interesting indeed. But it's just another one of those "it won't fit my design criteria" for this specific 3-way speaker system.
Funny how the SDX10 and the Ultimax have roughly the same X-max, but the Ultimax is much more "imposing looking". The surround is definitely overkill for the Ultimax.
Frames look similar. The JBL W10GTi has some additional aluminum above the top-plate, but it doesn't look like a shorting ring, more like it's part of the basket casting. Those top-halves of the basket are definitely large clearance designs.
Just look at that gorgeous black anodized aluminum cone! Yumm!
As a matter of fact I do...still need 4 more 10's...
😛